Unrelated to TVP & TZM

► Proto Tribal

Please note: the following material is from a specific time period Proto Tribal’s thoughts that might not have been fully developed as evidenced by this brief statement: “…Lots of ideas manifesting slowly but surely!” ~ https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637364144216236032.

The concept of a “nomadic hunter gathering group whose people uses sustainable open source coop produced diy green tech, to be neomadic forager/builder/artists” has been mentioned before. A great deal of time, and effort has been used by the author here to address, or ask question about these important issues, and concepts.

There are some people that also want to maintain traditional methods of building structures, and cities.  There are others that are worried that art and hand made products would not exist in a Resource Based Economy. It quite possible that people in a RBE society will view art, games, stories, film, live acting, music, sculptures, decorations, and architecture, etc… in a different way.

Currently: Proto Tribal might provide some very useful information on how to get off the grid, and live without money.The references that Proto Tribal gave in the short twitter interview alone are extremely interesting, and well worth sharing.

The Anti-TVP stance of Proto Tribal does conflict with Gharr’s volunteer work for the TVP (that includes promoting TVP and a RBE): and that will be a problem, as it may cause confusion among the audience, and that outcome must be avoided.

Proto Tribal almost verges on using the word UTOPIA: the ideal time period in history that our society was perfect; and that we should maintain that state of perfect society for the rest of time. Not even nature tends to stand still like that—it is unnatural. Life on this Earth has always evolved and changed over time.

Proto Tribal seems to assume that groups or cultures will simply give up automation, this would seem to be a false assumption. Humanity has embraced machinery throughout history, it is the “natural” way our society has evolved.

Proto Tribal does not seem to realize that our population levels might be well past the stage of a “nomadic hunter gather society,” as each of us would have the space of slightly over a Olympic swimming pool to hunt in. That means that Proto Tribal’s solution is most likely not going to be solution to the problems we face today.

It remains to seen if Proto Tribal’s concepts of an ideal time of a “nomadic hunter gathering” society is the type of lifestyle that all 7 billion of us want, and can realistically live in. Proto Tribal might be able to suggest a direction that humanity should evolve in—or back to, but that does not mean that Proto Tribal knows what path of evolution is the correct direction, or can say that the direction our society evolved in was mistake and not the “natural way—” and the natural way can unfortunately lead to extinction on occasions.

During the transition to a highly automated society, the type of life-style that Proto Tribal suggests might help start the movement away from the monetary system, and into the general direction that The Venus Project and/or Jeremy Rifkin proposes. Since The Venus Project seems to express a desire to live in harmony with nature, the things Proto Tribal suggests might also educate and shape a future where people do feel more connected with nature and the earth.

Opposed to The Venus Project:

  • Seems to think that people in a RBE will own property (not true);
  • That human history is a mistake, we should go back to a hunter gathering life style (on an area slightly larger than an Olympic swimming pool?)
  • The Venus Project is just making the mistake worse since it is not in harmony with nature as it was in the distant past (true, The Venus Project does not contemplate going back to the past, TVP wants to make use of automation);
  • At some time we were perfect, but that time is determined by Proto Tribal’s opinion—simple statements are not science, and it is unlikely that all 7 billion of us can live Proto Tribal’s off the grid—hunter gathering—life style (in an Olympic swimming pool sized areas). The Venus Project will not prevent people from trying out a lifestyle of a “hunter gathering life style,” but The Venus Project does not consider that to be main stream as RBE cities are not dependent on the hunter gathering life style.
  • The Venus Project does use natures model to design stuff, but not to the level of going back in time to a “hunter gathering life style.” The words “sustainable way of living” might not be fully defined by Proto Tribal, but there is no reason The Venus Project can’t achieve this—nature has several examples where evolution was not successful and species went extinct. Perhaps humans will become extinct, but it would be hoped that this will not happen. If humanity survives, then the system is sustainable.
  • Proto Tribal’s statement that humanity’s evolution into a society is a mistake, and that humanity evolved socially in the wrong way is a difficult concept in itself, and to separate it from the natural way that social evolution occurs is suspect.
  • The Venus Project will not use threats or force in a Resource Based Economy. Don’t know why Proto Tribal thinks human rights will not be incorporated into the way a Resource Based Economy is designed.
  • A Resource Based Economy as proposed by The Venus Project will not prevent people from living a nomadic life style, but hunting animals might not be acceptable in the future. If meat is still eaten in the future, it will probably be produced in vats (and 3D printed into the final product).
  1. “TVP is still under the delusion that property, settlement, and freedom are all simultaneously possible though.” https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637344823125540865
    1. Do you think that people will own stuff and property in a RBE?
    2. There does not seem to be any reason that a person who lives in a RBE can’t live a nomadic life style. Freedom is part a part of a RBE society, it is a given, and does not have to be written into law.
    3. It is very hard to really understand how you came to the conclusion that “TVP is still under the delusion…” given that you seem to imply that people in a RBE own property.
  2. “The only non coercive rbe is nomadic hunter gathering with the help of diy green tech. Anything else is hierarchy” https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637345553450315776
    1. There is no reason why threats, and violence will not occur within nomadic hunter gathering groups; or to think that warfare between nomadic hunter gathering groups will not occur.
    2. There is no reason to think that nomadic hunter gathering groups will not naturally socially evolve back to the situation we live in today.
    3. There is no reason to think nomadic hunter gathering groups will not freely (or as they like to say today: “optionally”) choose hierarchies—especially if they use machines, coercion, and warfare against other nomadic hunter gathering groups, or on the members of their own group.
  3. “It’s a repeat of a failed experiment, civilization, and would likely lead to the same mess we’re in now.” https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637355882775351296
    1. What makes you think our social evolution is not natural, or that it is an experiment?
  4. “It’s egotistical of humans to think they can design a more sustainable way of living than nature’s model.” https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637356509123342337
    1. If the social systems and technology in a resource based economy allow humanity to survive, then it is “sustainable.”
  5. “We evolved in harmony with nature as nomadic hunter gatherers until agriculture/settlement. Devolving since.” https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637357328199651328
    1. What makes you think that humanities social evolution to agriculture and settlement (camps, villages, towns, cities) is not natural?
  6. “It’s not nomadic, therefore, property, therefore necessary coercion.” https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637357963137581056
    1. If you don’t own property in a RBE, then how can it be coercion? You can walk away from it any time you want to.
  7. “Future that uses sustainable open source coop produced diy green tech, to be neomadic forager/builder/artists.” https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637359186947379200
    1. There is no science behind what you say, perhaps you should offer us some proof, and reveal how all 7 billion of us can make use of the plan you propose—and how will you prevent your Utopian culture from “naturally” evolving back to the machine culture we have today?
    2. It is very likely that a “nomadic hunter gatherers” will still use threats, coercion, and warfare. This would also accelerate such a Utopian to evolve back to the machine culture we have today, would it not?
    3. If you are suggesting a drastic population drop, then be up-front and tell us. If there is a need for a drastic population drop: then how much of a population drop are you talking about, and how will it be achieved?
    4. How much land area will a “nomadic hunter gatherer group need?
  8. “My research and experiences have shown that ‘sustainable city’ is an oxymoron.” https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637362516901785601
    1. Then publish your research so your peers, and scientists can examine it, and decide for them selves if: “a sustainable city is an oxymoron.”
  9. “community can be worked with or moved/reorganized on an as needed basis, eliminating conflict” https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637368380991758336
    1. At the current population levels the “nomadic hunter gatherers” would have to live in close proximity to each other: what would stop them from using threats, violence, and even warfare?

“The system is nature and it’s provided models for us.We can be nomadic=free like eagles or live in slave colonies like ants” ~ https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637331867608322048

“I’ve been largely money free for years now, minimalist, nomadic. Just give/receive freely and nature provides.” https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637344823125540865

It’s probably not realistic for all the earths population to live in a hunter-gather type life style, given that each of us would have the area slightly larger than a Olympic swimming pool to hunt in. Farming is a possibility. Proto Tribal might suggest that a lot of us might have to “peacefully die off:” (https://twitter.com/ProtoTribal/status/637107712271118336), but that would be a hard sell to all the people on earth, and they might prefer other options.

In the short-term Proto Tribal seems to be in line with Jeremy Rifkin’s concept that more and more people will live a life style that will not involve money (for the most part) and will bypass business, and government to produce food, power, products and information products (like music, education, books) for free. There seems to be no reason why certain cultures in a RBE can’t be nomadic, as there are no costs with moving and setting up in another location—money does not exist in a RBE.

The things that Proto Tribal talks about: like “living off the grid” might be realized to some degree in the short term—the internet of things will probably not allow people to live outside the information grid however—and non-monetary life styles might be quite common at some future date (before we achieve a RBE; if that is what we all want). That means that Proto Tribal might have some quite interesting information for those who want to leave the monetary system behind, as many of us still have no idea of how to live without money, and Jeremy Rifkin suggests that in some limited areas the monetary system will still exist in the future (assuming a RBE has not been achieved).

Surface area of the earth: 5.1×108 km2 = 5.1×1014 m2
Land area on earth : 1.49×1014 m2
Population on earth : 7.3633×109 people
m2 per population = 1.49×1014 / 7.3633×109 = 20235 m2 = 2.024 hectares
2.024 hectares is less than the size of a FIFA soccer field

In reality: not all land on the surface of the earth can support plants or farms in a significant way.

Arable land surface = 13,962,000 km2 = 1.3962×107 km2 = 1.3962×1013 m2
Arable m2 per population = 1.3962×1013/7.3633×109 = 1,896 m2
1,896 m2 is 1.5 times the size of an Olympic swimming pool

An Olympic size swimming pool, will not support a hunter gather individuals (if the land is shared equally between people). Thus in some ways, the concepts that Proto Tribal proposes seem silly unless most of the society is involved in farming, and not hunter gather activities.

Also the earth is suffering a mass extinction event (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3131891/The-sixth-mass-extinction-officially-begun-threaten-humanity-s-existence-scientists-warn.html) in addition to global warming that will cause a rise and sea levels (☆ Earth Underwater Documentary : http://youtu.be/baGrtqyWSRM) and a resultant loss of land (including rice-growing areas for example). It’s probably not possible for current world population to go back to a hunter-gatherer existence. If Proto Tribal talks about drastic population reduction, it will probably make them very unpopular… it is also a hard sell to suppose all cultures and/or groups will give up automation.

Currently Proto Tribal seems to assume that ownership of property (land & house) will make us slaves (an ant colony) and open to treats and violence from the hierarchy that is bound to form, or remain in such circumstances.  There is no reason to assume that ownership, and the monetary system (that is currently failing) will exist in the society of the near future. It is uncertain as to what if any hierarchy Proto Tribal refers to in a Resource Based Economy—as there will be no government (politicians) in an RBE.

It is uncertain if Proto Tribal will accept the concept that a nomadic lifestyle can exist in a Resource Based Economy, or how strong Proto Tribal’s desire to hunt animals is—a trait that many of us might not share, and might not be mainstream or popular in a RBE society of the future.


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