News - The Venus Project and The Zeitgeist Movement Split Official

Text For Quick Tweeting This Article:

It’s Official, The Venus Project and The Zeitgeist Movement have split up: http://bit.ly/eHpaIs , http://pear.ly/QA0H (+ May 2013 news update)

News Update May 2013

TEDxOjai – Jacque Fresco – Resource Based Economy

Not a great deal has changed for The Venus Project it seems, at least nothing that is amazingly obvious at a glance. People at The Venus Project are wondering if they too can be as “creative” and “inventive” as Jacque Fresco–and Jacque Fresco assures us that everyone of us can.

The major motion picture by The Venus Project is still in the production stage–funding has been achieved.

The Zeitgeist Movement seems to be doing more or less, what it has always done.

Introduction

The split between The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement, occurred around October–September 2011; it is now May 2013, so lets take a look at where they are now.

Jacque Fresco’s age—which is of little concern to him–has been mentioned on programs like “Jacque Fresco on London Real TV:” : http://youtu.be/42RYbA_3ImU, and many at The Venus Project may now be starting to wonder if there will ever be (or there currently is) another great, inventive, and creative person like him. Jacque Fresco in the interview mentioned above, clearly states there are no leaders at The Venus Project, and there are no creative people–indicating that there are already quite a few creative  people in The Venus Project (and in this world) that can make improvement on designs, just as he has done throughout his life; and could make this world a better place (by designing better systems for our world’s populations–world community—to work with, like the resource based economy for example). He also mentions in the interview, that if we feel we can’t do what he does, it may be the fault of the education system—that does not allow us to explore this world, and actively get involved with problem solving; because we have rules like “kids are not allowed to touch aircraft engines.” The author (of this article and update) also feels this “no touch rule” often exists among adults, and it can hold us back from solving problems in this world—and at really taking a good hard look at what The Venus Project can really offers us. Jacque Fresco is showing us that the “good hard look” might also include checking ourselves out, and realizing that we are capable of doing much more then we might realize.

People reading this article might be very interested in this: Jacque Fresco also makes a very brief mention about The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement Split in that interview (and this is the authors interpretation of it):

That we must work together as teams, we can not do this alone. To work as teams, we can not ignore what other team members have done, such as spending many years developing improvements to systems and architecture for example—just as we can not ignore the scientific material that others have produced for us. We should ask questions, and any one of us can make improvements if our education system and language allows us to learn and experiment–Jacque Fresco is not special in this regard.

We have the right to disagree with Jacque Fresco or anyone on our team, but to do so may result in us having to leave the team for an unknown amount 0f time–just like the child who asks his father to fix his toy car’s broken wheel, and his father replies, no problem, throws the car and wheel into the bin, “I’ll buy you another toy car. where the wheels can’t fall off [QED solution supplied].” The child looks suspiciously at the father, retrieves the car and wheel from the bin, and works on the problem for a while, fixes the wheel to the car, and comes back to his father. His father says “Wow, How did you do that?”

Working as individuals lets us have a lot more freedom to think the way we want to; or working in another team (not the original one) may make us feel that we have the freedom in the new group to explore new solutions or improvements that would not have been possible in the old group; and this may result in us coming up with new ideas. Once we have those solutions or improvements, we can come back to the original team and say: “hey look, what we found out!”

Jacque Fresco clearly states that The Venus Project group considers the door to be always open for Peter Joseph (who is not a leader) or other members of the Zeitgeist Movement who want to come back and learn more—and/or to work as a true team.

No doubt, if Peter Joseph or other members of the Zeitgeist Movement (or anyone else in this world of seven billion people) can come up with improvements on designs, or improvements to systems that help all people on this earth live a better life: then The Venus Project may decide to listen to them, if it fits into (or improves) ideas that have been developed in The Venus Project over a very long time.

Also, Ultimately, The Venus Project is not static, new improvements from any place in the world, or from any person in this world could end up being added to The Venus Project. Working with a team (The Venus Project) involves a lot more then just taking a look at history, it involves working in a team right now, learning about The Venus Project, and also exploring how this world really works right now—and it changes every day as new things are discovered and new technology becomes available. How much you decide to do is up to you.

On a more general note, The Venus Project is still growing, and is still working on some very big projects, as well as still conducting tours around the world. It is doing as much as it can, and that means if you propose a project, it may be possible, that you are the one who has to make that project a reality, or that you will have to join someone else’s project instead, for example.

One of the major projects that The Venus Project is involved with right now, is the making of a Major Motion Picture about The Venus Project: http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/get-involved/major-motion-picture-donations. The funding required to make this film has already been achieved!

This city is designed for, and to exist in— a resource based economy.

If there is enough profits made from this film—that will be released some time in the future, an experimental-city based on the ideas from The Venus Project might be made. This experimental-city should be the first steps to making a resource based economy a reality. An experimental-city would check out the real world’s technical problems that might arise while actual people are living in a city based on the resource based economy and fix them. In the world of science, everything is tested to see if it works as predicted, and a new type of city that depends on a resource based economy is no exception!

Of great interest: Jacque Fresco says we are in the transition process towards a resource based economy right now.

The authors opinions about the Zeitgeist Movement, is that they are an activist movement, but their website does not seem to be as focused on a solution, as the author might have expected. Given that they probably have lots of organizations proposing solutions for the world’s problems, this is a little surprising. Obviously, this is new territory for them, and they are taking their time–if this is the way they are in fact choosing to go.

If they remain an activist arm without an end goal, working on solving the worlds current problems—one might question: “what is the Zeitgeist Movement’s ultimate goal is”. Feel free to visit the Zeitgeist Movements website: http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/ and decide for your self.

Here is some of the solutions that the Zeitgeist Movement proposes will solve the major social problems of today:

• http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq#faq1
• http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq#faq4
• Resource-Based Economic Model (RBEM): http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq#faq5

When the author first read these solutions, the author was impressed. Today after the passing of several years the autor is no longer impressed. The Zeitgeist Movement has left this solution as a bunch of words, and has not worked to make them more then this. The impression is that they may not really be that interested, or the Zeitgeist Movement is depending on others to supply more details on a Resource-Based Economic Model (RBEM).

The author has read many technical documents, and even the most hard to understand ones have lots of graphs and pictures.

The author suspects many people will wonder if a few pages of words from the Zeitghest Movement are really enough to fully describe the magnitude of the world wide events that will be caused by 7 billion people changing over to a resource based economic model!

The author works outside both organization’s main websites and knows that the material that should be on the Zeitghest Movement’s website does exist–many members of the Zeitghest Movement work very hard to understand this world. It is hoped that the main website will one day reflect the hard work of it’s member’s efforts.

The Venus Project

The Venus Project website continues to have problems—but mostly on the related team-work websites (which are separate from the main website).

Updates on some of the things The Venus Project has been doing:

Jacque Fresco – The Venus Project | London Real

• The Venus Project visits London, England; and held a talk called “Jacque Fresco on London Real TV:” : http://youtu.be/42RYbA_3ImU
  1. Interesting, perhaps Jacque Fresco in this video is saying he is not special, or the only one that could “create” The Venus Project—because there are no creative people. Yes the author took a second look at his video when he said that. He mentions his abilities come from a broad range of experiences in (and access to) architecture for example, and that is why he could for example create make so many interesting buildings for his cities that might one day exist in a resource based economy.
  2. Jacque Fresco clearly says there are no leaders at The Venus Project! [time = 18:40]
  3. Jacque Fresco clearly says there is no ideal word, there is a better world [time = 22:41]
  4. Also around this time, 23:06, Jacque Fresco admits that you can only design a city according to what you now know, and in the future, we might even be able to design better cities. Perhaps we can see, that this is permission for future generations (perhaps even ourselves, or our children) to improve on the ideas put forward by The Venus Project. Ideas: such as how the cities and resource based economy could be improved, might be achieved when we learn more about our world at some future date for example.
  5. Larry King Interview [time = 31:00]: Jacque Fresco talks about how commercial concerns (getting money from sponsors) can prevent an honest discussion from occurring on our media channels. While this sounds like history to most of us, there are signs that advertising is becoming strong on YouTube for example, and if this takes a strong hold, such concerns may also influence individual producers of information, because they would not get a so called “pat on the back (possibly relating to privileges–such as ranking high on search engines, use of analytical tools to see how many people are taking notice of what they do on the internet, and/or financial gain).”
  6. The Depression of 1929 shocked Jacque Fresco [time = 34:40], he saw 15 million Americans people sleeping outside in empty lots. [author note: the statistics for this period are not very good, and Jacque Fresco may have had some strong influential contacts at that time that told him the true situation. ref used for statistics not being good at the time: http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Great_Depression.aspx "In the absence of government statistics, scholars have had to estimate..."accessed May 2013. The population in 1929 was 121,767,000 (thus 12.32% of people were sleeping on the streets)]
  7. Jacque Fresco discusses briefly the things that led to the split between The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement [time = 44:04]–and the author of this article and update, thinks he does so, because he is focused on talking about The Venus Project. Put simply, he says the door is always open for Peter Joseph to come back and learn more. He also feels that not only must problems be revealed (as is done in the Zeitgeist Movement), but solutions must be put forward–because otherwise people will simply just become frustrated and angry. More thoughts on what Jacque Fresco is saying about the “split between The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement” are mentioned in the introduction above, but are based on the authors interpretations (after listening to the entire interview, and knowing background information; that may be mentioned else where in this article).
  8. We need to talk to other people, otherwise people all over the world will never learn about The Venus Project. The current alternatives being offered by our world today are nuclear war, and environmental destruction. Such solutions are not acceptable. [Time = 54:34]
  9. Please note: Jacque Fresco uses words that best apply to a particular audience. The word “creative“, may be used in other videos in a different way, for that is the nature of words, they can be interpreted in several ways. Here he uses the world “creative” to show us that everyone can be “creative, or improve things.” The author has respected this, and tried to not use this word in this section only.
• Talk: The Venus Project Lecture: “Bosnia and Herzegovina – Banja Luka”
• Visited: Saint Petersburg, Russia
• Visited: Cologne, Germany, “The Venus Project as part of the International Forum of Contemporary Architecture:” http://www.newjackcity-int-cgn.blogspot.de/p/cinema.html
• “TEDxOjai – Jacque Fresco – Resource Based Economy:” http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/TEDxOjai-Jacque-Fresco-Resource
  • This is a great short video, explaining what The Venus Project is. He does use the word “creative,” because we all have the ability to be creative.

More Videos and photos will be posted soon on some of the above points, check out The Venus Project Website for updates: http://www.thevenusproject.com/

The Zeitgeist Movement

First of all, the author is not totally neutral, and has stated that a focus will be on The Venus Project. However, the Zeitgeist Movement was a part of The Venus Project once and the author was a member, by default. The split, has not caused any hard feelings towards the Zeitgeist Movement and apologizes to the Zeitgeist Movement, should this article, or other articles here, not focus on, or cover critical topics that should be covered. The Zeitgeist Movements view about the world are still of great interest to the author.

Peter Joseph and Cenk Uygur: The Zeitgeist Movement Interview TYT : http://youtu.be/vCQGbO7K3EQ.

• In the above video: Peter Joseph [time = 17:17] mentions that our society has been based around scarcity.
• In the video: there’s a discussion about how technology in today’s world can create abundance. But how would we use that abundance? [Time = 9:00]. At the end of the video interview: the interviewer reverts back to talking about the scarcity in our world repeatedly; and Peter Joseph lets it slip by without comment; perhaps leaving the audience a little confused as the show closes.
• Peter Joseph does talk about the transition period, a time where we move from the market based economy to a better way to distribute the abundance (of food for example that could easily feed the entire earth’s population) that we have available to us right now. He discusses how such a distribution might occur in the transition period, where we might still need to use money. He also goes into a long term solution, where food distribution is automated and costs are significantly reduced—the movement towards a system that might not need to use money! It is proposed that people will still work even if they don’t have to do so, because they have enough food for example—many of us volunteer out time today without getting paid for example.
• The Zeitgeist Movement feels that peoples values have to change, and not just the monetary system (otherwise the abundance of food for example can not happen–and is not happening under the current economic system ). The Zeitgeist Movement is trying to change peoples values (so that people all over the world will get a share of the abundance we do have available to us right now; due to the technology we available to us right now—such as vertical farms,  automation, and production that can easily supply and distribute food to everyone on this world). [Time = 23:58]
• The Zeitgeist Movement wants to show us the flaws in the current system; and to show us what the solutions to such problems are. To show people what is possible, and that they don’t have to continue to live the way they do right now.
• Peter Joseph only briefly talks about the total solution that humanity should aim to achieve—that we must find a system that takes care of everyone on this world. He gives lots of examples about the transition period and how we can solve the problems we face right now—such as sharing tools that we don’t tend to use often.

OTHER THINGS OF INTEREST AT THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT

• Blog talk radio for the Zeitgeist Movement: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/zmglobal
• TZM Orientation Essays 1-11: http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/orientation

News March 2012

The Venus Project News Update 2012 March

The Venus Project website seems to suffer problems of various sorts; but is quite nice to look at once it runs properly. Not sure if they actually do maintenance of the main website in a live format or if there is major changes going on–and there has been some considerable changes just recently… so this will be quite interesting to discuss here and in other places.

Probably the most recent development discovered is this video explaining the split between The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement. I don’t think it’s a quality analysis, but one view of the situation. The reason I think this, is the the dynamics between a large organization like the Zeitgeist Movement and the smaller organization like The Venus Project are only touched on in the video; but not really gone into. In simple terms, if we had a commercial company that where one of it’s departments was world wide, while the rest of the company existed in some small country town–there would most likely be tensions developing because of differences in scale (the big department would be concerned with lots of people, large sums of money, and world wide events while the rest of the company would be concerned with a small bunch of people and what was going on in the small country town. This in turn would affect power structures (among the people) in the organization of the company. This is just a example and not a direct reflection on the situation at TVP or TZM). Still it is nice to hear the views of others.

The difference in scale issues in the above example don’t exactly apply to TVP or TZM because both focus on global issues. Also the TVP (The Venus Project) is now formally world wide as it had developed teams all over the world: http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/get-involved.

I hope you enjoy the next video; it is indeed very interesting to watch.

Why did The Venus Project part ways with The Zeitgeist Movement?

Shortened link to video: Why did The Venus Project part ways with The Zeitgeist Movement? : http://youtu.be/zJbRM46tltI

The Zeitgeist Movement Update 2012 March

The Zeitgeist Movement has come with a surprising solution to its split with The Venus Project: it has decided to keep doing what it has always been doing but point out organizations that can implement the solutions that it proposes.

For example the physical designs and practical systems that will be used for a RBEM–Resource Based Economic Model–are solved by people like Jacque Fresco, Buckminster fuller, and Nicola Tesla. [Ref: FAQ 5.5 accessed March 2012]

The RBEM name was used instead of RBE because The Venus Project has claimed that name “RBE” belongs to The Venus Project. Again the use of RBEM seems to be a simple but elegant solution to the split and the subsequent fall out that it caused.

The entire FAQ section of the Zeitgeist Movement is quite interesting to read: www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq, so make sure you check it out if you are interested in a Resource Based Economic Model as proposed by the Zeitgeist movement.

While the Zeitgeist Movement has seemingly found solutions to the departure of The Venus Project, it does show signs of attempting what is apparently a difficult change of wanting to develop “Global Teams” and “Regional Teams.”

While the Zeitgeist Movement certainly has skilled members in its organization, the local meeting of members probably have become a thing that people have become accustomed to and they might not want to change to a new system with new responsibilities. Yet the Zeitgeist Movement has shown it can come up with brilliant solutions that seem obvious once they point it out, so it will have to be seen how the Zeitgeist Movement actually solve the need for “Global Teams” and “Regional Teams.” These teams would no doubt have special responsibilities in the Zeitgeist Movement and could rock the boat on the rule of autonomous groups that know exactly the same thing as the other groups. However I suspect the solution to this problem will also seem obvious once they actually get it up and running.

For the moment, the Zeitgeist Movement does seem to be continuing to run in much the same way as it did before–and has found interesting solutions to the problems it faced because of the split up with The Venus Project.

There are lots of interesting things going on at the Zeitgeist Movement as well as the traditional stuff.

I liked this blog they have for us to read: http://blog.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

There is also the Zeitgeist Radio Show: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/radio_shows if your more into audio type information.

Here is some information about Zeitgeist Media: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/tzm-media

Third Parties

The Venus Project has decided that some of its ideas and media can not be used as they were previously–contact The Venus Project if you want to know more about this: http://www.thevenusproject.com/.

The result of this–and this is the fault of both TZM and TVP not getting along–is that both the movements have been harmed in that works such as videos in support of TVP and TZM have had to be taken down. The cost of this in spreading information and support for both the organizations is hard to tell, but I suspect it is significant.

The public all had favorite videos and to one day find the videos have the standard message we have become used to: “multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement from claimants” is a loss to all the fans of those videos.

Breaking News October 2011

The Venus Project has changed their website and the way they function. So far the author has found that this might end up benefiting them a great deal; and their website is quite cool to look at. They may also drive a lot more traffic to their site as the articles stand alone and can be referenced individually from other websites directly.

The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement are no longer on talking terms

Because key references from The Venus Project have been lost it can no longer be assumed that The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement are on talking terms. This may be due to fundamental differences or legal disputes in progress. Searches so far through The Venus Projects website show no reference to the Zeitgeist Movement.

However neither The Venus Project or the Zeitgeist Movement will (or should) be able to hide the history of the two organizations–even if history does not look kindly at one or both organizations.

As with any relationship between two organizations, things may and probably will change in the future. Will try to keep you posted of any changes in the relationship between the two organizations as facts come in (and references don’t end up suddenly disappearing).

The Venus Project and The Zeitgeist Movement Split and it’s Official

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/ and http://www.thevenusproject.com/ still needs your support!

Here is a pearl-tree with more information: http://pear.ly/QA0H

I am not hurt by this spit, I feel good that finally The Zeitgeist Movement has been given leave to become its own person–and they will succeed. However my focus will remain with The Venus Project, but I feel no need to sever my links to The Zeitgeist Movement, both are heading in similar directions at the moment.

Both organizations seem to be gaining enough strength to become two organizations–the split is possibly to stop power struggles that occur when the organizations grow in size. I don’t think it is a true split in basic ideals or concepts. Both organizations are still moving in similar directions. I don’t think this spit will stop The Venus Project concept because we as a society are going there with or without either organization any way.

I think this persons audio response summarizes a lot of what I say here. Even if this split between The Venus Project and The Zeitgeist Movement has upset you, there is no need to lose sight of what this is really all about. As this speaker suggests you can even start your own organization if you feel strongly about it:
Douglas Mallette On The Zeitgeist Movement And The Venus Project Split

If the video is blocked/terminated due to arguments about what is essentially the opinion of one person, then I have provided a basic summary of what he said here to bridge this loss:

“Every aerospace engineer knows what the resource based economy is because that is exactly the system that would be necessary to live on another planet. There’s no money there and you have to automate as much stuff as you can. The Venus Project does not have some kind of monopoly on this idea… because this idea has always been part of space exploration and development from a very long time ago.

“It does not matter what flag you fly on your ship. What matters is what direction your ship is going, regardless of if it’s The Venus Project, Atlas or AREBETH(?), invent your own group if you have to. The goal is the same [and that is to move] towards a resource based economy.

“[… he goes into details about his own company that is designed to produce food for the whole world at the lowest cost possible…]

“Regardless of if it’s The Venus Project or the Zeitgeist movements fault, both organizations have not been communicating properly with each other and now [...the relationship between them has completely] fallen apart. And you know what… that happens.

“But you have to ask your self: does The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movements split really make any difference to the direction you want to drive your ship?

“[we need a resource based economy and we will continue to need one even if The Venus Project or the Zeitgeist Movement cease to exist. Don’t stop making an effort to make the resource based economy come into existence just because of these two organizations].”

I am certainly impressed by the videos that Douglas Mallette has been involved in. This is one of his video’s: Awakening Full movie by Douglas Mallette: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOO_AVwfZ9Q&feature=related. I know that people like this will not lose sight of what this movement towards the much needed resource based economy is really about!

This YouTube goes into the difficulty in the split–Roxanne Meadows handles the difficult interview (on The Venus Project Side):

The original function of the The Zeitgeist Movement was to implement the aims of The Venus Project–a sort of publicity arm.

However it seems that the The Zeitgeist Movement has become strong enough to stand on its own. It is able to generate its own ideas and directions. It seems that it is now on par with The Venus Project in ideas and directions. It is now strong enough to find its own way in the world.

I suspect that The Zeitgeist Movement feels hurt by this move; but I feel it is time they took the extra step and became their own organization, I have seen so many experts that are members and I think they have the technical ability to go their own way and succeed.

The Zeitgeist Movement has not failed, it can continue and thrive. The Zeitgeist Movement can make its own material and seek out additional partnerships now. I think this will be a new freedom for The Zeitgeist Movement. The Zeitgeist Movement is still accepting members.

The Venus Project is also accepting new members still and is still confident also.

There is no need for the two organizations to have power struggles or conflict because that is not what The Venus Project is about. I think that The Zeitgeist Movement will still be respected by people even after the split–because they really do have something to say and their members will possibly feel a new freedom of going beyond The Venus Project guidelines. The Venus Project has always stated that if you think you can do better, then go ahead and do it.

IF your ideas and concepts are an improvement then The Venus Project will take an interest in it.

I think this intellectual freedom for The Zeitgeist Movement is well overdue and shows that The Venus Project is true to its word. I certainly felt the creative energies from the members when I attended The Zeitgeist Movement meetings.

I personally would like to see some linkage of The Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project as the two are ultimately going in similar directions.

There will be a fall out as the two organizations separate. There will be hurt and a feeling of being lost.

As for me, perhaps in a similar way to the many other organizations that exist today, I had ideas that were much the same as The Venus Project. In my case I feel that The Venus Project had more developed ideas and I felt no hesitation to accept their concepts. I still feel a strong link to The Venus Project.

I don’t feel any reason to sever links to The Zeitgeist Movement since they are currently not too far distant from the ideas of The Venus Project.

I am one person, so my time is limited and my priority is The Venus Project.

I wish both organizations good luck.

I hope a strong friendship between the organizations will remain. I don’t see The Zeitgeist Movement as something that will disappear.

You can find all the links here: http://www.pearltrees.com/electronics/20171902/

Listening to radio interviews from The Venus Project and The Zeitgeist Movement (both sides are willing to hold talks with each other–confirmed)

Breaking News on this section: because the sources in this section from The Venus Project seem to be lost, it’s quite possible that The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement are no longer on speaking terms or are sorting out legal aspects.

Sources:

• The Venus Project Discusses the Recent changes and their new Movie:  http://pear.ly/QY4v – all films segments are now legally disputed and the YouTube account no longer exists (attempted access: 2 Oct 2011-third-party notifications of copyright infringement)
• April 20th ’11 – The ZM Global Radio – Host: Peter Joseph [a well known person: speaking on behalf of The Zeitgeist Movement]: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/zmglobal/

From listening to the radio interviews with The Venus Project and a radio talk by Peter Joseph–on behalf of the Zeitgeist Movement–I get the impression that both organizations are still willing to talk to each other despite the split [1- 3:54][2- 26.12 minutes into talk].

This is a official quote from The Venus Project’s website:

“New Initiatives”

“…The Venus Project would like to thank The Zeitgeist Movement for its valuable contributions in regards to raising awareness of the work of Jacque Fresco. At this time The Venus Project feels it is important to integrate the activism under the aegis of The Venus Project in order to work on specific projects directly related to its aims and direction. Therefore the two organizations are now moving forward autonomously…” [source: http://www.thevenusproject.com/ could no longer find anything about this statement (accessed Oct 2011 because website had changed), originally accessed May 2011]

Note: because the videos about The Venus Project no longer exist and The Venus Project website has changed recently (on or before Oct 2011) the references used for this section no longer exists. Thus the statements put down here from The Venus Project no longer have valid backup sources. All that can be said at the moment is that you can take them as honest or not use them because a lack of cited references and thus risky sources of information. The author is really sorry and did not see this one coming.

There may be some technical disruptions to this article due to administration level changes. Apologies if this causes any inconveniences.

---

This website was last edited 2012

When in single article view: The links (that may or may not be generated) below this point are supplied by WordPress for whatever reasons. They do not necessarily express the opinion or views of the author or the above article.